IMP003: Understanding the nice guy syndrome and the value of men’s groups with Rowan Andrews

Rowan Andrews - Understanding the Nice Guy Syndrome and the Value of Positive Men’s Groups (#003)

 

TODAYS SPECIAL GUEST

Rowan Andrews

Rowan is a professional men’s coach and founder of the No More Mr. Nice Guy UK support group, currently over with 1700 members. Rowan leads groups, one-to-one sessions, seminars, and workshops helping men free themselves from the limits of their Nice Guy personas to discover and embrace their true, authentic selves.

 

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WHAT YOU’LL LEARN
  • What events led Rowan into men’s coaching and a path of self-discovery.
  • What the ‘Nice Guy Syndrome’ is and why so many of today’s men are one.
  • Why there is no one big fix to our emotional and spiritual problems.
  • Why we must stop avoiding conflict and distracting ourselves from reality and become more self-aware, authentic and assertive.
  • The value, and importance of positive men’s groups.
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KEY RESOURCES & LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE

Connect with Rowan Andrewsnomoremrniceguy.co | LinkedInFacebook | MeetUp

TRANSCRIPT

Stuart Dixon:
Hi, my friends, my name is Stuart Dixon, welcome to the Ignited Man Podcast, a weekly show dedicated to improving the lives of men. This is Episode three, and today I am pleased to welcome Rowan Andrews to the show. Rowan is a professional men’s coach and founder of the No More Mr. Nice Guy UK support group, currently with over 1,700 members. Rowan leads groups, one-to-one sessions, seminars, and workshops, helping men to free themselves from their limitations.

 

Thanks again to Rowan. Here’s the episode.

 

So I am really, really pleased to welcome, back I should say, Rowan Andrews to the Ignited Man Podcast. We had a first go at this but unfortunately, computer issues meant that we lost, well, I lost the conversation, but Rowan has graciously agreed to have another go at it. So thanks for coming back for a second time around.

 

Rowan Andrews:
You’re welcome. Good to see you again.

 

Stuart Dixon:
Let’s start with an introduction to you. Obviously, you’re a men’s coach. How did you get into men’s coaching?

 

Rowan Andrews:
Well, I was actually a business coach, so for about twelve to thirteen years, having had my own business in public relations and communications. And then I became a business coach and I started coaching CEOs of small businesses and helping them change their business to help them grow faster. And usually, would help them develop the strategy that they needed to grow. But the thing they needed most to change was their ability in themselves as a person or people who were the leadership of the company to actually implement the changes that were required so that, I had to coach them directly to be able to make the changes they needed to be able to change the business. And, of course, those people in leadership, in these small businesses, were usually men. So that’s kind of how it started. So I was coaching. and I’ve worked with women as well, of course, women CEOs, but mostly they were men. There were commonalities and themes that would come out in the things that we would discuss with them from their personal life and in their personal being that were the things that we would need to explore to be able to grow the business and implement the strategy.

Then about six years ago now, my marriage broke down. My wife had an affair.

We’d been together for about 17 years and had kids who were young teenagers then. We lived in a little village in the country. It was this kind of idyllic life in a way, you know, it wasn’t all plain sailing, but it was something of a kind of dream, living in the country with this lovely sort of family of four, you know, being together, thinking that that would be the case for the rest of my life. Being with this woman for the rest of my life. So when this affair happened, it blew up my world completely. And it sent me on a journey to explore what the hell is going on. What am I responsible for that I brought to this relationship that caused my wife to have an affair?

I needed to understand something about myself there. So I went on a kind of deep-dive exploration into therapy, doing workshops, reading, exploring all sorts of things, exploring my own sexuality, for example, as well. I came across the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. And I went to go and work with Dr. Glover in the States. I came back and I wanted to join a group in the U.K. and I couldn’t find one. A group, a men’s group that was kind of specific around this idea of the ‘nice guy’ because I felt such resonance with the story that he describes and uses in the book. So I realised I had to set up my own group. That was just over three years ago now. And now it’s grown to like seventeen hundred men or something like that. I created a boot-camp, which is an experience sure a version of the book, in a way. It’s like taking the book and all the practices in it and creating an experience in a very intense workshop environment over two days with a group of men that helps them to massively accelerate that kind of recovery and growth. So I created that and I got Dr. Glover to endorse it. He came over and presented the first one and endorsed it. And. So that’s kind of how I got into men’s work. Of course, since then, you know, men started coming to me for one to one private coaching, as well as coming to the groups and seminars, workshops, and boot-camp workshops. So that’s how I got into it as a rather long answer to a short question.

 

Stuart Dixon:
No. No, it’s great. Fantastic.

I’ve obviously read that book as well, and I can certainly relate to a lot of themes within that book. In fact, I think out of all the books I’ve read, I think it’s certainly in the top three books that have made a difference for me personally. So anyone listening out there? Certainly a book. I think both of us would recommend that you pick up. I’ll share that link with you guys as well with this podcast.

So when you’re going through that divorce, were you in a headspace that you felt it was your fault or were you were searching for answers? Did you put all of it on yourself despite the fact that you or your wife had had the affair?

 

Rowan Andrews:
I went through a phase of that, but it was more from a perspective, it was more about, well, what you know, this is. I think I came to a realisation that there was something going on for both of us. We must at least be 50% each responsible here.

 

Stuart Dixon:
It takes two hands to clap.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Exactly. I wasn’t the one that had the, you know, the affair. But I must have created some circumstances in which she wanted to withdraw and seek a relationship and sex with somebody else, right? So I wanted to discover that. And that’s all I could control in my life. That’s all I could really look at. So it was my own stuff.

 

Stuart Dixon:
So the guys that come to you for help and support, what are they seeking help for? Is it the same thing, or is there a selection of things?

 

Rowan Andrews:
It is a selection of things, although funnily enough, I get a lot of guys saying your story is exactly like mine, right? So men do come because they echo my kind of story where their wife has gone off after a long term relationship and had an affair. And they’re devastated. It’s not all like that. But most of the men that come to my groups are either seeking a relationship with women or they’re in a relationship with a woman. And it’s not working in some way. And they want it to be better. They’re desperate. Most men are really desperate. I would say that’s not too strong a language is keen, but what they want for their life is to be able to relate closely with a woman and to have had, you know, a beautiful, intimate, happy, calm, bluffing, intimate relationship with their partner, with a female partner. Most of them, I do have gay guys to come to the group, but mostly heterosexual relationships.

 

So when it comes down to the whole nice guy thing, I came to one of your group sessions a couple of weeks ago. And what I got out of that was the fact that you had a mixture of guys there, all ages, different races, all the rest of it. But they were all going through the same issues. And there was advice being shared around from various sources across that group. It was really interesting that you could be in your 20s or even in your 60s and could be going through exactly the same challenge. Is that something that you find common with your one-to-ones as well?

 

I find it very common that men of all different ages are going through the same kinds of things. With older men, they are perhaps a little bit more accepting of their lot or their circumstances and a bit more slightly more reflective on. Whereas younger men are really eager to kind of get out of and find that the strategy or the technique or whatever it is they need, that’s going to give them what they want, which is usually more sex and better, better effects and, you know, easier kind of life with their partner or with women. So that’s the kind of main difference, I would say. But fundamentally, the issues are the same.

 

Stuart Dixon:
So let’s talk about the nice guy element for those listeners that aren’t aware of this book and your boot-camps. What are the nice guy behaviors? What are the common denominators that the guys find themselves? They might not even know that they’re in that place, but yet they are effectively one of these nice guys.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Well, I also recommend men read the book, as you did just a moment ago. And one of the things about the book, and I think this is the kind of genius of the book, is that virtually all men, certainly every man that comes to my groups that have read it, (not all of them read it) they say, “wow, that book was about me! It describes me perfectly”. That’s the brilliance of Dr. Glover. In that book, he speaks to all of us, He simplifies all of these issues and makes it all understandable. So that’s a kind of art. It’s like a sigh of relief when you read that book. Is that somebody understands me

 

Stuart Dixon:
I’m not alone.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Exactly. And that’s the experience that men get when they come to the group. They get in a very real sense because there are other men, face-to-face, or online that are really sharing their lives authentically. They come away from those meetings with such relief. You know, ‘there are other men out there just like me dealing with what I’m dealing with and struggling with what I’m struggling with. Thank God, I found a group with kindred spirits. So, What are nice guys?
Basically nice guys, as Dr. Glover describes them in the book are people pleasers. That’s what they want, to please other people. So they’re always putting others first rather than getting their own needs met. That might be, on the one hand, a lovely thing to do. It’s to kind to be of service to other people or do things to help other people but people-pleasing has a kind of dark side to it in that Nice guys do it to in order to ingratiate themselves on the other person in order to be validated by the other person. So they put their own needs and desires, often aside in preference for the other person. It’s how they’ve been conditioned, to seek the approval of others, and basically get by in life by just being nice, they are giving to get. So giving something in order to get something back for themselves. Fixing is universal for men too. We always try and fix a problem or fix people and doing that in a kind of underhand manner.

 

Keeping the peace. So avoiding conflict. It’s an almost mortal danger to confront a challenge and arguments for nice guys. That’s what it can feel like. So we’ve got to keep the peace at all costs and avoid any kind of conflict and also hide their own mistakes and flaws.

 

So it’s a very lonely place to be. Where there’s a lot of shame and often it’s very hard for men to actually acknowledge that there is any shame, that they have any shame. But that’s one of the things that they seem to be at the source of this syndrome as well. I would say beyond the confines of the nice guy syndrome, there is a deep-rooted shame for most people that if it stays hidden creates psychological suffering. I think the work that we do is it’s helping men to uncover that shame and be okay with it, be accepted, know that actually they are accepted and there is nothing shameful about being who they are. And so that’s kind of what’s what being a nice guy is all about. I mean, the list goes on. The problem with it is that it’s like a strategy that’s been created in order to survive the intolerable conditions of their upbringing.

 

Stuart Dixon:
So why are nice guys condition this way? What is the environment in which these behaviors start in the first place? It’s interesting when you know the sources of the nice guy, you get a really good understanding as to why you are what you are.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Well, the more recent historical context, first of all, is that we as human beings are conditioned by our experience and most of our experience and conditioning around the sort of identity that we adopt is created in our formative years in our children. And the problem is that often our caregivers were insufficient or incapable of fulfilling our needs. Now, that is a wide spectrum, we could be talking about people who were brought up by a kind of psychotic people or deranged people for example at one end of the spectrum, at the other end we could talk about people very with a solid family life, here everything was actually catered for yet some kind of minor disconnection or loss of love from the parent to the child caused some kind of traumatic event in that child. There ‘s a massive broad spectrum of extremes. But basically what we’re talking about is the conditioning we received as children. Now with our upbringings in the last, certainly 50, 60 years is that most men, certainly most nice guys, were brought up by a single parent, usually the mother, and the father was absent either because of divorce. Divorce laws were relaxed in the 60s, making it much easier to get a divorce, prior to that the family would stick together. But, there was kind of seething anger.

 

underneath the relationship and men having affairs and so on. And just dysfunctional lifestyles in a different way.

 

So a lot of nice guys brought up by single moms struggling, often financially met fathers who weren’t really there and when they did visit to take the kids out they were kind of disconnected emotionally because they were scared themselves from the past. If you think back to their generation, they were brought up by parents who would have experienced the war and maybe were had very kind of Victorian values as well.

 

So we’re not that far away from some very rigid kind of ideas about how to bring up children. That’s still kind of running through our culture and has done to a large degree. And if you go back again, if you go back thousands of years, we would have been brought up in tribes and we would have been taken away from our mothers at an early age into the group of men, into the collective of men who would go out and learn how to hunt and fight and gather and gather the food to bring back to the women in the tribe.

 

So these roles dramatically change. We don’t have those kinds of rituals or experiences where we would go out and be together with men anymore. Even in this sort of agrarian era, we would be out in the fields with our father working. So we would have that kind of experience of learning and understanding from a male figure, a strong male role model. After the First World War, of course, a million men went out and died so we lost a generation of fathers. So, you know, and since then, they really haven’t been strong male role models in our lives.

 

Stuart Dixon:
So we’re running around effectively trying to find out our identity, our purpose and we’re kind of leaning into the past for guidance. Going out to work and providing in all these kind of things. But a lot has changed. So therefore, we’re kind of we are in a confused state, an insecure state. Would you agree with that?

 

Rowan Andrews:
Well, I think there’s a certain I don’t think ulcer’s answers. Men really know who we are. Right. You know, and what kind of role is in in the world? I mean, I think one of the things I’ve really seen over the last few years they’ve been doing this work is how directionless men are in life. Other than getting a slightly better job, earning a bit more money, having a few more holidays and, you know, having a bit more sex and a better relationship, apart from that there’s not much that men are really driving for in their lives. And so they’re kind of directionless and they lack potency, you know, the impotence in a way that they’re not cutting through.

 

It’s very difficult to cut through the barriers and limits of the world in order to make a difference in the world. And I think men kind of lack that cutting edge, that that ability to sort of penetrate the world. And there’s a certain softness about men not wanting to, we don’t want to upset people because of this conditioning that we’ve talked about. And the third thing I think there is a problem is that we’re disconnected. We’re disconnected from ourselves. We live in our minds, live in our heads. Everything is about trying to think through an answer to every kind of problem. We’ve kind of disconnected from our bodies and our intuition. There’s deep, deep wisdom in our bodies and intuition that we seem to have kind of disconnected from. We lack the ability to connect with other people, including our partners, and we lack the kind of connection to anything bigger than ourselves. Like a spiritual connection. So I think that the antidote to that problem is that we need meaning and purpose in life to give us direction. We need potency.

 

We need to be able to have the skills and courage to be able to cut through and manifest our kind of vision and purpose in the world. We need connections and to put down our phones. We’re so distracted. There’s so many distractions in life, whether it’s TV, social media, YouTube, Facebook, porn addictions, alcohol, smoking, drugs, caffeine, even, you know, all of these things. Sugar, sweets, chocolate, all these things are just massive distractions. Food itself can be such a massive distraction, a way of numbing ourselves out and keeping us disconnected and stopping us from dealing with the issues,

 

Stuart Dixon:
Stopping Satterley from at least, you know, making things better effectively.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Exactly. Exactly. So those are the kinds of things that those are the three areas that my work sort of focuses on. This is really helping men uncover their purpose, helping them develop the skills to be able to cut through and manifest, bringing forth change in their own lives and in the world. And to be more connected and spiritual in that and not see life as just about themselves but actually having a broader perspective on that.

 

Stuart Dixon:
So I suppose a sad thing is that, for example, when you get seriously ill it’s too late to treat the source. And I think that perhaps it’s similar here with the nice guy, the whole behavior, confidence etc, all these things. If you accept your lot, then you stagnate and you’ll just go through the motions and no change is brought about. So would you say that the first step really is to wake up and don’t wait for something bad to happen before you take any action? Actually, notice the signs, the warning signs, and wake up and start to make the changes?

 

Rowan Andrews:
Yes. The problem is, I think it’s very easy to say just wake up.{laughs}

 

Stuart Dixon:
Yeah, exactly. ‘But I am awake! I didn’t realize I was asleep'{laughs}

 

Rowan Andrews:
I think the reality is that most men actually will leave it and they put it off. They put their own development, their own personal development off until it gets SO bad, being where they are. The pain of change or the perception of the pain of change is reduced because the pain of staying the same is actually increased and actually greater than the pain of change.

 

So that’s when they come. That’s when they come and join the group. It’s got kind of intolerable. Their relationship has broken down or they can’t get a date with a woman or they are terrified of speaking to a woman, for example. You can’t get a date and have been stuck in that job. And they’re kind of rotting in their careers because they, can’t cut through it get a promotion and get to the next level or whatever it is. And that’s just become intolerable in their lives. I would love it, Stuart, if the men would do it the way you suggest.{laughs}

 

We don’t do that, you know, we resist change. We’re resistance machines. We resist any ideas that might be counter to our own because that might in some way threaten our own security and our own idea of ourselves, our own identity.

 

Stuart Dixon:
Is the process your boot-camps similar to how they break you down in the army? First and foremost, you’ve got to break them down in order to get them to open up?

 

Rowan Andrews:
Well, I’m laughing because it sounds so brutal when you say that. Emotionally it might be for some I guess {laughs}

 

It’s a boot-camp and I suppose that does conjure a certain image. It’s a boot-camp because it is intensive, that’s for sure. And we do do an intensive kind of exploration of this conditioning of the nice guy. And it’s intense because it’s an emotional journey. Men get in touch with emotions they never knew they had. And they learn where that all comes from. They learn to process that for themselves rather than have it kind of either suppressed and leaking out in uncontrollably. Like men losing that shit when they get angry and stuff, you know, and not being in control. You’re getting in touch with all of that stuff and kind of understanding where it comes from. And not just anger, but sadness and real deep, deep sadness and grief that men are suppressing in their lives as well. So they get in touch with all of that. So it’s intensive. It’s a boot-camp because it’s intensive, because it goes into that and into the kinds of places where men have not been before in terms of their own self reflection and self-examination, you know, exploring themselves. So that’s that’s why we call a boot-camp. It’s not brutal.{laughs} Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to do.

 

I suppose what we’re talking about here really is the power of men’s groups. You were talking a moment ago about where we used to spend a great deal of time back into tribal days, effectively with other men and feeling good. We had a purpose. We had missions and things like that. And if we’re not getting that right now, then men’s groups seem to be the answer in the sense that there’s relatability. You’re not alone. Support and ultimately, you’ve probably got guys there that have been through challenges that can help me through my difficult problems and challenges.

 

Whereas perhaps in your own life, there’s no one necessarily there that could provide that same kind of support for you. Would you agree with that? Would you say that the men’s groups are incredibly important, in fact, for men right now and also the next generation of men coming through?

 

Yeah, and a few years ago, nobody knew what men’s group was and they would probably sound weird and cultish. Probably still does now to some people. But, I think men have to find their own way. We have men’s groups and No More Mr. Nice Guy. men’s group is actually about personal development and personal growth. It’s about transcending the self in some way, taking steps to transcend at least that part of this one’s identity. Not all men’s groups are all about that. I’ve seen men’s groups that are really kind of emotional. They’re sort of forums where men can simply emote, you know, just outpour their emotions. And for me, that doesn’t really serve enough purpose. And it might be an important thing from time to time to do, of course. And I think we have to be in touch with our emotions. But just to kind of go in and commiserate about the misery in one’s life is not a really healthy or a growth thing.

 

Stuart Dixon:
It relieves the pressure but doesn’t solve the problem.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Yeah, exactly. And to me, it doesn’t even relieve the pressure. It might relieve the pressure of a feeling. But not the situation itself. So I men need to think carefully about what is it I want to get from it. Am I going on to find deep exploration into who I am as a person, what I want, why I exist on this planet, and what I’m going to do in the world? Or am I doing this just as kind of some way of having just some kind of fraternity with men? Maybe it’s just to play a sport or socialize. I think you got to choose carefully where you spend your time. You know, don’t just join a men’s group for the sake of joining the men’s group because everyone’s in a men’s group. There’s not much point in that.

 

Stuart Dixon:
I suppose the key there, what you’re saying is that whatever men’s group, it has to be nourishing you in a positive way. Why do you think the men find it so difficult to open up with their partners even with other men? When you look at all the suicide rates, for example, it’s crazy. If men only knew the benefits of that is not weak to open up, then those statistics, I’m sure, would be significantly lower. Why do you think men perceive opening up as weak or why don’t we have the skills that women have to talk about that kind of stuff?

 

Rowan Andrews:
You’re right. Women do have much greater skill at this. They tend to do it as part and parcel of their lives, you know, connecting with their friends, with other women friends and so on. We don’t have that. I think we’ve just been conditioned to suppress raw emotion. I think most of us have been brought up, is ‘there, there don’t cry’. Kind of thing. So you just got to get on with it. The issue, I think for many men that the issues that we had as kids weren’t really resolved. The emotional problems that we had or the emotional experiences we had were never really fully resolved often.

 

So whether we were told off by our father for doing bad, getting our homework wrong or we didn’t have enough access to our mother because she was off out all the time or whatever, these events were the sorts of things that can lead to us to not really understanding our emotions because our caregivers weren’t loving us at that moment or weren’t respecting our feelings in those moments.

 

And so we learned we’ve to suppress them. And I would say it’s the same for women as well. Just women are better at talking about their emotions than men. But I think that’s the reason we were conditioned to sort of suppressing our emotions and to they were never adequately resolved. We’ve never really been able to healthily expose those emotions, understand and process them, and resolve them in a healthy way. And that’s part of what we do in boot-camp and in the name of Mr. Nice Guy group.

 

Stuart Dixon:
Has there been a resource or book that helped you through your challenges that you’d recommend to someone picking up?

 

Rowan Andrews:
Well, not really any single source. I did a lot of reading. I developed my interest in spirituality. I did psychotherapy. I think that’s great. A lot of men in the group go to see a therapist. I think that can be very helpful. It’s not the answer on its own. I think also for me personally, it was exploring my own sexuality and understanding my shame around my sexuality. What I wanted from sex and that sort of thing. So I think that’s a very, very useful exploration for men. It’s all about stepping onto a path of self-development, self-growth, and understanding that it’s a journey. And it’s not just a one fix thing. You know, there are layers and layers and layers and you really want to be happy and fulfilled, which is, by the way, your true nature.

If you really want to actually live a life of kind of abundance and happiness and fulfillment and it’s an ongoing journey, you know, there’s no one book or one workshop you can go to. That will fix it all forever. It’s not a destination. It’s a journey. You know, it’s a direction, not a destination.

 

Stuart Dixon:
Rowan, besides the men’s groups themselves, are there any other activities you’re involved in?

 

Rowan Andrews:
After boot-camp, there is a program, a six-month-long program called vision into action. So that’s for men that have been to the boot camp. It’s an intensive deep dive, an exploration into yourself, and your vision for the future. The program is about actually manifesting bringing forth something into the world that is inspiring to you. So that’s the vision into action program.

 

I’m developing a leadership program as well for men who have been through that, and that’s launching very soon. And I also have relationships, seminars that I deliver for single men and single women, and also couples. And that’s something I do in collaboration with a couples therapist. So those are the things that I offer at the moment.

 

Where can people get in touch with you Rowan?

 

Yeah. It’s www.nomoremrniceguy.co. There’s a MeetUp group that has all the events listed on it. That’s if you join Meetup.com and search for no more Mr. Nice Guy UK. The other thing that we do is for men that have been to the boot camp is we set up a WhatsApp group. There’s a Facebook group as well, just search for No More Mr. Nice Guy UK on Facebook and you’ll find that group and you can apply to join.

It’s incredible to hear the sharings of men on that group once they’ve been to boot-camp. There’s always a burst of energy straight afterward as they take their learnings back into their lives. But even months later, there are postings from time to time men who are sharing little updates on what’s been going on for them and how they’re having breakthroughs. And it’s also a great support network as well. So when men are struggling to deal with something, then there’s the support of the group there that can reach out for. And, you know, we set up kind of buddy systems and so on like that. A lot of men actually socialize and made friendships which have developed as a result.

 

Stuart Dixon:
Well, Rowan, thanks again for taking the time out for a second go at this podcast. I think this one was better. We covered a lot more stuff than we did the first time. And if you are listening to this podcast, make sure you check out Rowan and his work. And I think what we’ve kind of realised is that you are not alone. If you’re struggling right now, there are people like Rowan and there are many groups out there just make sure you find one that’s positive and nourishing to what you need to help you along your way. So make sure you check those out.

 

Thanks so much again Rowan. I wish you all the best.

 

Rowan Andrews:
Thank you very much.

 

Stuart Dixon:
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Rowan. So what were the key takeaways?

 

Well, nice guys are people pleasers. They put aside their own needs for the validation of others. They give so they can get something back. If you’re a nice guy, you’re a fixer. You avoid conflict. You act as a peacekeeper. All the while, you hide your own flaws and insecurities. If this sounds like you, then you need to read No more. Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover it’s an essential read in understanding yourself and your behaviors so you can start to do the work and make the necessary changes to become the more authentic and happier versions of yourself.

 

We must discover a strong sense of purpose and meaning bigger than ourselves and build the courage to take action to succeed. We must reduce the noise and the distractions that stop us from being present and reconnect with ourselves and the people that we care about.

 

Find a men’s group that will enable you to grow one that supports and encourages your personal development to please visit the website, www.theIgnitedMan.Com to subscribe to the newsletter in the show.

 

I can keep you up to date with all the latest content and resources to help you to be inspired into action. Also, please give me a rating Apple Podcasts and our content can reach as many people as possible. So tune in to next week’s episode when we’ll be speaking to Matt King, business leader and founder of the SalesChange Podcast.

 

When we talk about eating your fear in order to make difficult decisions if you want to live an authentic and fulfilled life. So until then, thanks for joining me on the podcast, bye.